effective hit rate

 
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Detah



Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 4
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:11 pm    Post subject: effective hit rate Reply with quote

Hello:

What is a good effective hit rate for a total newbie?

Example: a L1 total newbie with a newbie sword from a newbie package attacks a L1 monster with no eq and no enhancements of any kind. What should his/her effective hit rate be? 10%, 25%, 35%, 50%, 75%? Of course anything will work.

I am not interested in simulating reality. That is, I dont care if the effective hit rate is close to reality. I am mostly interested in making a fun game, where the player has multiple possible actions during a round. For example, they can use a simple heal spell to heal themselves of 1 or 2 pts of damage, they can drink a healing potion, or they can cast a simple spell which does 1-3 damage. By default they will do a normal melee attack with whatever weapon is wielded. I am asking about the effective hit rate for the normal melee attack.

If you make the hitrate too low like 1%, then combat will take forever even for an extremely low hp monster, with say 5 hp. For a player who does 1-3 damage with their weapon, 1% of the time, the average combat will take 350 rds. I think the player will be utterly bored by this. Likewise if you make the effective hit rate too high, you will have one or two rd combats. This may simulate an easy battle well, but it does not give the player time to 'do' anything. Nor would they have any incentive to. Then you start asking the question, has the player consumed any resources during this battle? Its highly unlikely that they bothered to heal or cast their damage spell, so no sp was used. At most they received 4 damage, and they need to wait 4 ticks to heal up to max. So both extremes of 1% and 100% effective hit rate seem unreasonable. I think everyone would agree.

A Level 1 newbie will have 0% Attack skill and 0% Sword skill. So I am wanting to leave some 'room above' for advancement in this area. That is, it seems logical to me that a player with 75% Attack and 70% Sword attacking that same L1 newbie monster should hit more frequently than the L1 newbie. So I'm leaning towards something below 75% for that reason alone.

Probably anything between 25-75% is fairgame.

So, what do you use for your mud's effective hit rate? What issues did you consider to make this determination? Did you target a specific effective hit rate, or did you just compose a ToHit function/formula and let the chips fall where they may with respect to the effective hit rate?

Detah@Arcania
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: effective hit rate Reply with quote

Detah wrote:
So, what do you use for your mud's effective hit rate?


I went for a hit chance of (Attack*100)/(Attack+Defence). Thus if your Attack is the same as your opponent's Defence, you have a 50% hit rate, while having an Attack of twice their Defence gives a 66% hit rate, three times their Defence gives a 75% hit rate, and so on.

Detah wrote:
What issues did you consider to make this determination?


Previously I used a linear calculation, but it ended up with situations where many players simply couldn't hit each other. My current approach scales a lot more nicely, as it becomes increasingly difficult to improve your chance to hit.
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jmurph



Joined: 19 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diminishing returns is also an excellent tool for soft-capping potentially unlimited advancement.

Equally matched opponents should probably be able to hit one another about 1/2 the time for most hitroll/damroll style MUDs. HP and damage should be proportional. (One of the oddities/problems with D&D was that a starting character likely couldn't stand even a single good weapon hit, but a high level one could take dozens of them.) So, it is reasonable that a noob 'nife might onlt do 1d2 damage to those weak 20 hp mobs whereas the Masta's Sword of Slayin' do 200d1000 damage to those multi-million HP mobs or whatever. Of course, then you need to limit gear access or new players can easily be twinked....
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Detah



Joined: 20 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

50% effectice hitrate, d2 damage, target has 20 hp. That yields an average of 27 or 28 rds of combat. That seems like a reasonable design for newbie vs newbie. It allows plenty of time for them to use some commands, but not overly long. I think one should be very aware of this formula when planting mobs in newbie areas. A 10 hp monster would also be a good plant. But a 50 hp monster, might be too much of a challenge for that same newbie. 68-70 rds might be a bit much for a newbie area.
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Tyche



Joined: 13 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: effective hit rate Reply with quote

Combat that lasts more than ten rounds starts to bore me, let alone 50+ rounds.
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Kelson



Joined: 18 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:50 am    Post subject: Re: effective hit rate Reply with quote

This all depends on theme, focus, and your desired combat flow. I like combat to be brutal (low number of rounds) with a large focus on reaction (longer response time), yet retain the overall frequency/duration of combat reminiscent of Diku/ROM. My choice hit rate, assuming two players who are otherwise equivalent and balanced, who take a balanced combat 'style' (neither overly aggressive or defensive fighting tactics / skills), and in a neutral environment would be about 25%. With a benchmark of about 3-5 hits being lethal, this means between 12 and 20 rounds of combat.

Tyche wrote:
Combat that lasts more than ten rounds starts to bore me, let alone 50+ rounds.


That depends on the rate of rounds; if you get 1 round per minute, ten rounds of combat could be excessive. If you get 1 round per second (ala Diku-esque autocombat), 30 rounds passes pretty quickly. Especially if the player(s) are required to interact every round, more than ten rounds can be tiresome for every normal battle. On the other hand, if you can 'kill monster' then come back in a minute, no big deal.

Personally, I like a bit more than ten rounds in the average fight simply to provide opportunity for maneuvering during battle, though this depends on how much complexity is within each round (fighting the battle on multiple fronts; if there are 10 'distinct' factors to consider each round, more time may be critical). The flip side is, for a Diku-esque came with frequent 'semi-challenging' battles, most fights should take less than 1-3 minutes. If a normal battle takes 5 minutes, combat is excessively long, imo, for that type of game. I can imagine games where combat takes 3 days as well (preferably through asynchronous measures; PBEM, for example) though and works really well.
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: effective hit rate Reply with quote

Tyche wrote:
Combat that lasts more than ten rounds starts to bore me, let alone 50+ rounds.


That's a very arbitrary limit. What if combat has 12 rounds, each lasting 1 second? What if combat has 5 rounds, but each lasts an hour? What if the number of rounds can vary between 1 and 50 depending on how offensively or defensively the two characters are fighting? What if combat is modelled on a tactical game like chess - does chess bore you after the 10th round? What if there aren't any rounds at all?
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shasarak



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's PBEM? Confused
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shasarak wrote:
What's PBEM?


Play By E-Mail - check here for some of the history.
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Tyche



Joined: 13 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: effective hit rate Reply with quote

Sure it's arbitrary. My assumption is a game like a Diku.
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