Social combat
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Ashon



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how does social combat work?

Do you have social Hit Points? Social Weapons? How do you determine what is a social attack? How do you defend against a social attack? How do you handle victory in Social Combat?

Any thoughts on these?
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: Munich

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashon wrote:
So how does social combat work?

Do you have social Hit Points? Social Weapons? How do you determine what is a social attack? How do you defend against a social attack? How do you handle victory in Social Combat?

Any thoughts on these?


Social hit points would be one possibility, although I'd rather have it work more like the social equivilent of wrestling match, with both individuals struggling to put the other into a losing position. That way you don't end up with the rather odd concept of social hit point 'healing' or 'damage'.

There probably wouldn't be weapons, although wielding a regular weapon might give you an edge in an intimidation attempt. Other equipment could also have modifiers in much the same way (as demonstrated by Fable) - a set of spiked armour could make it easier to scare someone, rags could improve your chance at begging, fashionable clothing could make it easier to seduce someone, and so on.

A social attack would be conceptually much like a physical attack, although it would probably make more sense if you take it back to the wrestling comparison I gave previously - don't think of it so much as causing damage, but rather vying for control of the social situation.

Victory would depend on the type of social combat - seducing someone might allow you to have your wicked way with them, intimidating them might prevent them from initiating combat against you, and so on. Note that I'd probably keep some things specific to mobs, as I'm not sure that players would enjoy being seduced by other players. PK is often demoralising enough, but at least it doesn't leave you with a bun in the oven.
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Ashon



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KaVir wrote:
Ashon wrote:
So how does social combat work?

Do you have social Hit Points? Social Weapons? How do you determine what is a social attack? How do you defend against a social attack? How do you handle victory in Social Combat?

Any thoughts on these?


Social hit points would be one possibility, although I'd rather have it work more like the social equivilent of wrestling match, with both individuals struggling to put the other into a losing position. That way you don't end up with the rather odd concept of social hit point 'healing' or 'damage'.


I'm not sure of the difference in code terms. I imagine that wrestling is more of a sliding scale, someone is on the + side, and the other is on the - side and whoever is able to get to the end of the + side first wins? Where as social hit points are just that hit points? At first I was thinking that Social hit points would be refreshed after each social combat to max. But the possibility of using social hitpoints to determine moods, and actions is an interesting concept. It also could be easier to pull in allies for social combat (SC, from now on) by using Social Hit points (SHP, from now on)


Quote:
There probably wouldn't be weapons, although wielding a regular weapon might give you an edge in an intimidation attempt. Other equipment could also have modifiers in much the same way (as demonstrated by Fable) - a set of spiked armour could make it easier to scare someone, rags could improve your chance at begging, fashionable clothing could make it easier to seduce someone, and so on.


Um, well, I was actually talking about things like medals, ranks and other cultural aspects that can be used as weapons in SC. Mention your Medal of Bravery and increase the amount of SHP damage dealt (reflects that you have a prominent position). You can also have Armor, items or cultural aspects that make you resistant to certain types of Attacks.


Quote:
Victory would depend on the type of social combat - seducing someone might allow you to have your wicked way with them, intimidating them might prevent them from initiating combat against you, and so on.


It's probably because I'm not sure of this wrestling metaphor, but say you mix both intimidating and seduction into SC. Conceptially, I don't see any way for the code to determine what outcome the player is trying to accomplish. Unless the player specifically types: >SAttack Seduction. This is one of the issues that I'm caught up on currently.

Quote:
Note that I'd probably keep some things specific to mobs, as I'm not sure that players would enjoy being seduced by other players. PK is often demoralising enough, but at least it doesn't leave you with a bun in the oven.


Good point. Though I don't plan on implementing bun in the oven code, I can see where you are coming from.
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KaVir



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not sure of the difference in code terms. I imagine that wrestling is more of a sliding scale, someone is on the + side, and the other is on the - side and whoever is able to get to the end of the + side first wins? Where as social hit points are just that hit points?


Yes, that sort of thing - I'm not talking about a specific implementation, but rather the sliding scale approach instead of the hit point approach. You don't win by reducing your opponent to 0, but instead win by overtaking them by X.

Quote:
At first I was thinking that Social hit points would be refreshed after each social combat to max.


That's also a possibility, although it would cause all sorts of problems if more than two people could engage in social combat at once (you turn around and give the socially inept peasant a quick tongue-lashing, restoring your social hit points for the main argument you're involved in).

Having said that, so would the sliding-scale approach (unless you combined it with a feature like an introduction-system, which allowed each player to store information about each other player).

Quote:
Um, well, I was actually talking about things like medals, ranks and other cultural aspects that can be used as weapons in SC. Mention your Medal of Bravery and increase the amount of SHP damage dealt (reflects that you have a prominent position). You can also have Armor, items or cultural aspects that make you resistant to certain types of Attacks.


Ah, gotcha - yes, thought would work well. Fable also uses trophies that you can earn from completing quests (the giant wasp queen's head, etc), and they work in a similar way.

Quote:
It's probably because I'm not sure of this wrestling metaphor, but say you mix both intimidating and seduction into SC. Conceptially, I don't see any way for the code to determine what outcome the player is trying to accomplish.


Nor me - I think you'd have to separate them into different types of combat. Seduction and intimidation are really completely different types of combat, just like (say) firing a bow as opposed to wielding a sword and shield.

Quote:
Unless the player specifically types: >SAttack Seduction.


That's probably the sort of thing you'd need to do, yes - allow the player to specify the mode of combat they wish to use, and then unlock the commands appropriate to that style of combat.
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Ashon



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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been awhile since I played Fable (Living with an M$, Employee is nice, as he got on release day), but as I recall during SC, you started off talking to them and based on your alignment were the choices that you were offered. And then I'm reminded of the way that THE SIMS works when having discussions. (This has already been talked about, but I'm writing it for my own thought process) Depending on the option that you chose, and your personality vs their personality, inject the current needs of both parties involved, and each type of discussion that you have either gives you + or -. But the more the slider moves the better options you have.

So take a system that has needs, goals, or personality ratings ala SIMS, take the starting alignment, and engage in SC. You start off with a broad option of socials. And then you basically walk down the tree, that best fits into the player/npc discussion model. I imagine it almost like the Tumbler system. Each Social can make them to increase one of the sliders, decrease the sliders, or keep it the same. Textual hints will give you an idea of which socials one might think about using. On the Code side, it would be like a reverse Tree Structure you have 20 options in level A, and then the options in level B are dependent on level and the current discussion model.

The Social Data structure would have to have some sort of SC_Outcome field(s) and slider modifications fields.

Did any of that make sense to anyone but me?
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