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Lared

Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 26

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: Too high an entry cost?

Something I've just noticed... A friend of mine wanted me to play a RPI/RP-enforced MUD. I'm an experienced roleplayer, been doing it for quite a few years, and I've played RP-enforced/RPI MUDs before. It's not new. Looking through their chargen, though, I was entirely turned off. It's not the race selections or classes or any of that. It's the idea that, just to get into the game and look around to see if it's something I want to play, I: -give them an email address -- something I don't like to do until I know a game enough to trust them -be disconnected and reconnect -have to write a (fairly extensive) description -- a good chunk of time -have to write a background -- a good chunk of time -am expected to be immediately familiar with their backstory and setting (necessary to write a quality background) -- a bigger chunk of time -disconnect But, more than any of this--they expect me to wait for them to approve the character. Now, yeah, it's their game. They can run it how they want to. But is the idea that you should be subjected to a fairly onerous bit of reading, assimilating of information, and then waiting to be "approved" just to find out whether the game is worth the time of day. Is this kind of entry cost a good idea for a MUD? It really seems more like a way to scare players off. Is this some form of test? Cockeyed, misplaced elitism? I completed their chargen, but it'll be a cold day in hell when I go back and play. The mindset they convey is that they're better than me and I have to jump through hoops to be brought into the Golden Temple. Not a good thing. Opinions?

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Drey

Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Livonia, MI

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

Most of your RPI players, if not admins, really look down on hard-coded systems for pretty much anything in the game. It's really cooperative story-telling, as near as I can tell, so they do need to do some screening to make sure that anyone who isn't going to take it seriously enough stays away from their game.

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Spazmatic

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Is this kind of entry cost a good idea for a MUD? It really seems more like a way to scare players off. Is this some form of test? Cockeyed, misplaced elitism?

Player quality is very important to many of these muds, so they need some form of screening process. Of course, not all of them use a character creation or character approval screening process, but nearly all of them have some system - whether it's blocked communication until so and so a point, maxed levels without approval, or simply mass social ostracism. It's surely not misplaced elitism - they just don't want to deal with the "wrong" type of player.

It does also serve the secondary purpose of scaring off hack'n'slashers and griefers, plus prevent easy creation of alts, for better or for worse.

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The mindset they convey is that they're better than me and I have to jump through hoops to be brought into the Golden Temple. Not a good thing.

This, I'm sure, is not their objective. Is it a pain in the arse? Sure. Does it cost them players? Sure. However, many RPIs rely on word of mouth, reviews, and players willing to take the effort, so they survive. It may not (probably isn't?) the best imaginable system, but it works okay.

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arrowhen

Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 11

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

Lared wrote:

-am expected to be immediately familiar with their backstory and setting (necessary to write a quality background) -- a bigger chunk of time

Right, and it's always either 40 pages of dry exposition starting with the gods creating the universe and moving ponderously forward or it's 40 pages of overwrought fantasy fiction that reads like it was scavenged out of R.A. Salvatore's wastebasket. Either way, the intent is never to present the prospective player with a compelling introduction to the world, or to provide roleplaying hooks or potential character motivations, but simply to proclaim to the world, "Look at all this stuff I made up! Look at all these words! Look at all these unpronounceable proper nouns filled with apostrophes and stuff! I'm a Real Writer!"

Since none of this is any help at all, the only people playing the mud are either:

1) Friends of the owners, exempt from the written background requirement.

2) Long-time players, who learned about the world by actually playing in it, playing their 20th new character.

or 3) Players who didn't bother to read the backstory and setting at all, and just submitted a long, angst-ridden background generic enough to fit (badly) into just about any game. These players make it through because their submissions don't actually get read. (Frustrated unpublished authors never read the work of other frustrated unpublished authors, out of fear that it might turn out to be good.)

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Sandi

Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Boston

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:36 pm Post subject:

For better or worse, what you're describing has been standard on MUSHes for the last decade. It hasn't seemed to scare players away, as the number and size of the games has grown over the years. To be honest, some players seem to enjoy making characters more than roleplaying them. In this case though, it may have been the implementation, not the concept. Or, maybe it was just unexpected.

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Falco

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: The Drawing Room

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

Lared wrote:

Something I've just noticed...

A friend of mine wanted me to play a RPI/RP-enforced MUD. I'm an experienced roleplayer, been doing it for quite a few years, and I've played RP-enforced/RPI MUDs before. It's not new.

There's more to role-play in a role-playing enforced or RPI MUD than the common interpretation of the word. More on this later.

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Looking through their chargen, though, I was entirely turned off. It's not the race selections or classes or any of that.

It's the idea that, just to get into the game and look around to see if it's something I want to play, I:

-give them an email address -- something I don't like to do until I know a game enough to trust them
-be disconnected and reconnect

Unlikely you are the one that need be worried about trust. Using your email address for anything nefarious would only hurt their MUD. There are easier ways to get email addresses than building a MUD for that purpose.

However, from their perspective, keeping players from multi-playing is probably the reason for the email address as well as the added advantage for both you and them that in the event of a forgotten password, they can reset it and send it to you via the email you and only you should have access to.

In other words, submitting an email address really helps everyone.

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-have to write a (fairly extensive) description -- a good chunk of time
-have to write a background -- a good chunk of time
-am expected to be immediately familiar with their backstory and setting (necessary to write a quality background) -- a bigger chunk of time
-disconnect

If you don't have the patience to actually develop a character and write it out, you're probably not going to have the patience to role-play the character either. The goal of most Role-Playing Enforced and RPI MUDs is not the same as the vast majority of MUDs. They're emphasizing creating a character that is consistent with the setting and one that interacts in the setting not as the player would but as the character would. To do this, there has to be some development to the character beyond the typically-poor degree of most MUD characters.

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But, more than any of this--they expect me to wait for them to approve the character. Now, yeah, it's their game. They can run it how they want to. But is the idea that you should be subjected to a fairly onerous bit of reading, assimilating of information, and then waiting to be "approved" just to find out whether the game is worth the time of day.

If they're an RPI MUD (or even a Role-Playing Enforced), they're expecting role-play of a character consistent with the world. Let's just say it's a medieval world. Having a character that considers himself a crack-shot with a laser-pistol and has their hair died pink just doesn't fit in. In order to maintain the world within the game, the staff has to make sure that PCs don't slip in that show no evidence of caring about the in-game world, or that they don't have massive flaws in design (or even minor ones) due to ignorance of the setting, etc.

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Is this kind of entry cost a good idea for a MUD? It really seems more like a way to scare players off. Is this some form of test? Cockeyed, misplaced elitism?

Ah, "elitism". It's not elitism. It's about maintaining consistency within the game, a feat very few MUDs come close to even attempting, much less coming close to succeeding. They're not running a MUD so anyone who doesn't give a shit about the game can come in and ruin the experience for those who actually do care. And sadly, there are a lot of players out there that don't care. They're self-centered, whining, immature children who want to do things their way, regardless of the circumstances or the lack of thought behind their actions. They're destructive to the setting and only end up causing trouble.

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I completed their chargen, but it'll be a cold day in hell when I go back and play. The mindset they convey is that they're better than me and I have to jump through hoops to be brought into the Golden Temple. Not a good thing.

Opinions?

They're not better than you in the sense that they're superior beings or anything, but they probably have a better grasp of role-play than you do. They value their setting and want to present a game world that functions according to its design. You mentioned earlier that you've "played RP-enforced/RPI MUDs before" but I really have to question if you have. If you did, you'd find this sort of experience to be nothing new. Role-playing on an "enforced" or RPI MUD is about role-playing a character within a setting, not about getting into the game without any thought and wandering about killing things or acting out of the setting. No medieval-themed MUD wants Wookies running around. Why? Because it's inconsistent with the theme. If you don't care enough to think out your character, your role-play experience is likely to be a dismal and unimpressive one. Why? Because your character will come across as an idiot who doesn't know the basics of the society in which they supposedly grew up in. If that's your goal, fine, but even an idiot would have absorbed cultural influences.

Does it hurt these MUDs to require some thought in designing a character for play? No, because in the end, they're choosing quality over quantity. Better to have a smaller playerbase that actually cares than large numbers of people who don't. It's not their loss, it's their gain because the alternative is the destruction of setting for everyone that does care.

Later,

Falco

Last edited by Falco on Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:09 am; edited 1 time in total

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Falco

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: The Drawing Room

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

arrowhen wrote:

It's about creating a setting and laying the groundwork for the culture represented within that setting. There's far more diversity to the real world than the average person even can conceive. Sadly, the majority of people are ignorant that not everyone shares the same views of even the smallest of things about any aspect of the world. Now, when you've got a world that doesn't rely upon any of the existing real-life diversity, it's all the more important to elaborate those differences.

Do MUDs sometimes take it too far? Well, not really, but they do often tend to use the same cliches and poorly-designed concepts over and over. But at least they can try to be consistent. In the end, if the goal is role-play and not hacking-and-slashing, it's essential, which is why your statement that "none of this is any help at all" really reveals that role-playing within the setting isn't a concern for you. In that case, role-playing enforced MUDs and RPIs probably aren't designed for you. There are likely MUDs out there that are better suited to what you're looking for in a MUD. Another example of the diversity of our own world.

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the only people playing the mud are either:

1) Friends of the owners, exempt from the written background requirement.

Not true. Most MUDs, I won't say all because there probably are some half-assed examples out there that I'm not aware of, that take the time to want a consistent game world wouldn't sacrifice it just because their friend doesn't want to do it. Why? Because if they cared enough to design the world, they'd probably not want to sabotauge it themselves through such behavior. Does that mean there aren't hypocritical idiots out there that do it? No, but they're not really examples of the norm so much as hacks that are on a power trip more than they are concerned with quality.

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2) Long-time players, who learned about the world by actually playing in it, playing their 20th new character.

And they obviously cared enough to develop a character that would be approved, even if their skills at role-play weren't great. They showed they cared, and took the time to try and role-play rather than just wander around expecting that the game should cater to them rather than to the established setting.

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3) Players who didn't bother to read the backstory and setting at all, and just submitted a long, angst-ridden background generic enough to fit (badly) into just about any game. These players make it through because their submissions don't actually get read. (Frustrated unpublished authors never read the work of other frustrated unpublished authors, out of fear that it might turn out to be good.)

Speaking as a former administrator on an RPI MUD, I can assure you they get read. Characters of players that don't have a good grasp of the setting will find, as I said above, that their characters tend to fail to achieve in game for the same reason a nudist would find themselves an outcast at a formal dance. They're not conforming to the setting. From the in-game perspective, the characters of players that don't learn the setting will come across as fools in-game. And from an out-of-game perspective, those players will come across as lazy, arrogant, self-centered, and for the most part worthless since they don't contribute to the game positively. They're simply not worth compromising for since they don't really care. If they don't care, why should the staff of the MUD want them? They have nothing to offer except their own hyper-inflated opinion of their "role-playing skills" which in all likelihood are just as poor as their knowledge of the game-world.

Later,

Falco

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arrowhen

Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 11

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

Falco wrote:

It seems I've failed to express myself clearly. I certainly wasn't complaining about unique and detailed settings--I've been creating and playing in unique and detailed settings in tabletop RPGs for twenty-odd years now. What I object to is the way those settings are presented to the prospective player.

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In the end, if the goal is role-play and not hacking-and-slashing, it's essential, which is why your statement that "none of this is any help at all" really reveals that role-playing within the setting isn't a concern for you. In that case, role-playing enforced MUDs and RPIs probably aren't designed for you.

What I meant was that a giant chunk of bland exposition that starts with "In the beginning, such-and-such deity created such-and-such" and progresses through thousands of years of ancient history isn't any help to a player trying to develop a character concept that fits into the world as it exists here and now. How many people in the real world know more than a page or two of real ancient history? Yes, a detailed history is an important part of worldbuilding, but it doesn't all need to be dumped in a player's lap before he or she has been allowed so much as a single glance at the world.

Worldbuilding is lots of fun, there's no denying that, but when you're building a world for other people to play in, rather than just for the sake of doing it, you need to think about everything from a player's perspective. Crafting a world is only half of the process. The other half, the more important half, is presenting that world to your players in a manner which best enables them to participate in it.

You need to give a player the tools he or she needs to develop an interesting and appropriate character. For example, one of my favorite character concepts to play is the intelligent but uneducated barbarian, driven by curiosity to explore the more civilized areas of the world. In order to play such a character on an unfamiliar mud, I need to know if a "barbarian" culture exists and how they're viewed by the rest of the world.

Or say I want to play a once-happy young veteran made bitter and cynical by the horrors of war. I need to know if there's been a war recently and who was in it. What I don't need is the history of every war ever fought since the beginning of time--not right away, anyway. Maybe later on my character will become a student of history, seeking to uncover the events of the past which led up to the terrible conflict in which he fought. Maybe then, as he sees ancient enmities once again beginning to flare up, he'll be driven to help stop the next war before it starts by allying himself with those who possess the political power to affect such events.

In the such a case, the history of the world would have a profound impact upon an individual character, but said history will be where it belongs: in the world, not standing as a barrier between the world and a potential player.

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Falco

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: The Drawing Room

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

arrowhen wrote:

Ah, yes. There's something to be said for presentation of information on a good number of MUD websites (struggling myself with creating a good layout that will be both informative and structured in such a manner as to meet the needs of new and old players alike without forcing them to go through the unnecessary to find the needed information they seek).

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It can add to the way in which they perceive the world though. In any culture, even those who don't know history are affected by it as it determines how they react to certain things and how they view events and circumstances they encounter daily.

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How many people in the real world know more than a page or two of real ancient history? Yes, a detailed history is an important part of worldbuilding, but it doesn't all need to be dumped in a player's lap before he or she has been allowed so much as a single glance at the world.

Speaking as a professional historian, it always saddens me to know that not enough people know about the past. The impact of events thousands of years ago still carries over into the mindset of people today, even if they don't understand the millions of events over centuries that separate them.

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You need to give a player the tools he or she needs to develop an interesting and appropriate character. For example, one of my favorite character concepts to play is the intelligent but uneducated barbarian, driven by curiosity to explore the more civilized areas of the world. In order to play such a character on an unfamiliar mud, I need to know if a "barbarian" culture exists and how they're viewed by the rest of the world.

Yes, but in this example, it is still the character who's ignorant. It shouldn't be the player. Far too often, the reverse is true. And that isn't excusable because it impacts others who play the game, if only by destroying the illusion of the world they're RPing in.

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Or say I want to play a once-happy young veteran made bitter and cynical by the horrors of war. I need to know if there's been a war recently and who was in it. What I don't need is the history of every war ever fought since the beginning of time--not right away, anyway. Maybe later on my character will become a student of history, seeking to uncover the events of the past which led up to the terrible conflict in which he fought. Maybe then, as he sees ancient enmities once again beginning to flare up, he'll be driven to help stop the next war before it starts by allying himself with those who possess the political power to affect such events.

In the such a case, the history of the world would have a profound impact upon an individual character, but said history will be where it belongs: in the world, not standing as a barrier between the world and a potential player.

I understand and agree with you. Sadly, there are a lot of players out there who don't. From the perspective of an RPI admin, they make maintaining the setting all the more difficult. Nothing can be as disruptive to other players' RP as having another player, not their character, lacking an understanding of the setting.

The issue is really perhaps organization of the information, not the existance and expectation of knowing it. Too often, players don't invest the time in learning the world enough to interact in it within context. They enter with modern mindsets and behavior, something that isn't acceptable to maintaining the game's setting and culture.

Does that mean staff of RP-centric games shouldn't concentrate on presenting this information effectively? No. But it also doesn't relinquish responsibility from the players themselves to learn it. It's reciprocal and necessary to creating a good game world.

Later,

Falco

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Sandi

Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Boston

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

arrowhen wrote:

Maybe a bit over the top, but I've tried to play enough online RPGs to get a good laugh from this critique.

Literary content aside, here's a practical suggestion: One of the first things I did to my ROM was kill the Nanny. I used pretty much the same code, just made it check for a room instead of a state. So, after a name and password, players appear in a room in the game. The first room suggests a lot of reading materials for those with patience. The next room lets them choose their Race, then there are rooms for each class... there's even a room where they can change their name. This way, I can walk players through Creation and answer their questions. Sure, you can learn from books, but isn't it better to have a teacher?

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Lared

Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 26

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Too high an entry cost?

Falco wrote:

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I'm paranoid. Sue me.

Seriously though--I don't care what their reputation is. I haven't dealt with them before; I don't trust them with my email address.

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However, from their perspective, keeping players from multi-playing is probably the reason for the email address as well as the added advantage for both you and them that in the event of a forgotten password, they can reset it and send it to you via the email you and only you should have access to.

If you think this keeps players from multiplaying, my friend, I have a wonderful bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I have three email addresses--work, home, and side-job-work.

And this site doesn't have a password reset feature.

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In other words, submitting an email address really helps everyone.

And if the game is one I want to play--you know, they give me a chance to enter it and see how the mechanics work--I'm perfectly alright with giving them my email.

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If you don't have the patience to actually develop a character and write it out, you're probably not going to have the patience to role-play the character either.

OK, you misunderstood me here. I have no problem developing a character--I have a problem with being forced to do it before I'm allowed to see if the game is one I want to spend time with. I had to spend an hour and a half reading their overwrought prose and writing a background and description before I could even have my application processed. If I don't like the game, that's an entirely wasted chunk of time.

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The goal of most Role-Playing Enforced and RPI MUDs is not the same as the vast majority of MUDs. They're emphasizing creating a character that is consistent with the setting and one that interacts in the setting not as the player would but as the character would. To do this, there has to be some development to the character beyond the typically-poor degree of most MUD characters.

I know this. This isn't my first RPI MUD. You can stop trying to lecture now.

What they're doing is front-loading the process.

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Then ban the morons. Don't stiff the rest of the players.

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They're not better than you in the sense that they're superior beings or anything, but they probably have a better grasp of role-play than you do.

Ahahaha. Sorry, no. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest, but--no. I've worked on RP-enforced MUDs and builder-admin'd a RPI MUD before I moved on to coding (oddly enough, not one that needed this kind of hidebound crap and it still worked fine). I play on numerous RP-enforced MUDs; I also run four or five flavors of TT games on and off, IRC and over-the-table.

If anything, I would put forth that while they might have a decent grasp of roleplay (I've been playing RP muds since I was ten years old--give me a break here), they've got no grasp of game design. Making players jump through hoops just in order to try the game is shortsighted and bad design.

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They value their setting and want to present a game world that functions according to its design. You mentioned earlier that you've "played RP-enforced/RPI MUDs before" but I really have to question if you have. If you did, you'd find this sort of experience to be nothing new. Role-playing on an "enforced" or RPI MUD is about role-playing a character within a setting, not about getting into the game without any thought and wandering about killing things or acting out of the setting. No medieval-themed MUD wants Wookies running around. Why? Because it's inconsistent with the theme. If you don't care enough to think out your character, your role-play experience is likely to be a dismal and unimpressive one. Why? Because your character will come across as an idiot who doesn't know the basics of the society in which they supposedly grew up in. If that's your goal, fine, but even an idiot would have absorbed cultural influences.

Because EVERYONE knows a newbie-flagged or "obviously new" character should know everything about the game's story before, yes? Throwing a bunch of names at a player means that the player is going to randomly choose a place and some assorted proper nouns for their background to make it look good. It's the same reason a good writer doesn't make a reader suffer through a prologue in a book--it inundates a reader with a bunch of garbage that has no context. Doing this does nothing to facilitate RP.

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Does it hurt these MUDs to require some thought in designing a character for play? No, because in the end, they're choosing quality over quantity. Better to have a smaller playerbase that actually cares than large numbers of people who don't. It's not their loss, it's their gain because the alternative is the destruction of setting for everyone that does care.

You either just didn't read what I wrote, or you intentionally ignored it. Let me quote myself.

Lared wrote:

they expect me to wait for them to approve the character. Now, yeah, it's their game. They can run it how they want to. But is the idea that you should be subjected to a fairly onerous bit of reading, assimilating of information, and then waiting to be "approved" just to find out whether the game is worth the time of day.

I don't care that they want a background, a longwinded description, and all of that. If the game's worth playing, I'll do it gladly--once I've found out whether it's worth playing. This is the MUD equivalent of buying a car sight unseen. When you do that you invest money for a product whose value can't be ascertained. When a MUD demands this, the player must invest time for a product whose value likewise cannot be ascertained.

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arrowhen

Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 11

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject:

It seems to me that any number of these problems could be solved through the inclusion of guest characters. Let players jump into the world and explore a bit, try out the combat system, try out some spellcasting. Let players actually visit their prospective hometowns, rather than just picking one from a list. Let the see some roleplaying in action rather than just telling them they're expected to roleplay. If the mud is class-based, let players actually try out a few classes before choosing one. You would, of course, want to institute some limits on the guest characters so that cheaters couldn't use them to safely explore areas that woudn't want to risk their real characters on, and an "ignore guests" flag wouldn't be a bad idea either so that troublemakers couldn't use the guest character to be disruptive, but neither of those features would be particularly troublesome to code.

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shasarak

Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 134
Location: Emily's Shop

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject:

The problem with guest characters in an RP environment is that it still allows an avenue for RP-clueless newbies to come storming in and annoying everyone by not role-playing properly. The owners of this particular MUD have obviously decided that they really do want to vet people for role-playing skills before allowing them into the game, and I can sympathise with that. This is not an easy situation. It might be possible to have two separate copies of the MUD running, one for experienced players and one for newbies, or (which is much the same thing) to have a newbie zone that is separate from the main game. But if you do that then the newbies can't actually see RP in action, so they won't get an accurate idea of the game. Another possibility would be to make guest characters invisible to normal players, so they can observe without intefering - but if you do that, then they can't interact with the game in any way, and can't ask (quite reasonable) questions to find out what to do. I suppose you could do both: have a newbie zone where a few experienced players hang out as guides and tutors, and allow newbies into the main game only as invisible ghosts - so they can practice playing without annoying the elders, and also observe the elders without disturbing them (although not both at the same time). But this is an awful lot of work, and it will still annoy some people.

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arrowhen

Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 11

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject:

shasarak wrote:

The problem with guest characters in an RP environment is that it still allows an avenue for RP-clueless newbies to come storming in and annoying everyone by not role-playing properly.

That's why I suggested coding an "ignore guests" flag, for players who don't want to be bothered by the guests.

Besides, if you made the guest character a village idiot or something, no matter what the "rp-clueless" newbie said *would* be proper roleplaying. Wink

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shasarak

Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 134
Location: Emily's Shop

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject:

arrowhen wrote:

That's why I suggested coding an "ignore guests" flag, for players who don't want to be bothered by the guests.

Unfortunately, not being able to hear what newbies are saying is not enough: you also have to prevent them from interacting with the game world in a non-RP fashion, or doing anything which can have any impact on an established player.

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