Hosting solutions -- a rant
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Kyuss



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Southern Hellinois

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Hosting solutions -- a rant Reply with quote

This is a rant, take with grain of salt, or pepper!

Is it just me or is the only choice advanced mud's are given for
hosting is just to host your own server? I mean WTF mate.

Server went down last year, and Ive had no end of problems with
computers since that time. Damn universal inconsistencies.

Web space is easy to find, but trying to find a mud hosting service
which actualy doesnt limit your mud without emptying your pocket
book or credit card is about a dilemma.

Average mud hosts seem to be like 64 megs of ram, 10% cpu (wtf),
maybe 200 megs of space -- all this for maybe 20$ a month.

This might be fine if your starting up a stock diku, merc or rom.

How about a solution for those of us who left stock behind a long time ago?

Myself, the only ones I seem to find are 100$ a month (or more!) and
its just stock crazy cause damn, we're mudders, we're supposed to be
cheap and lazy -- hence why we like text and not gfx.

myself, just to be able to boot up, needs at least 300 megs of ram (very
hard to find a service which even offers more then 128 megs).

I realize that bandwidth costs money, but in this day and age, a server
offering a bit of ram, a non pent2 cpu (yeah I actualy stumbled upon a host
site which said they had one p2 server left to rent), with a bit of hard drive
space -- um hello, log file of 400 megs anyone?

I mean, ram sells in 2 gig sticks now days, dual core cpus @ 3ghz each!
200gig hard drives? yet mud host services offer up 16-32 megs of ram
and 10-20% cpu cycles, with 50-200 megs of hard drive space. yeah
thats fine and damn dandy if im connecting on a collecovision or a
friggin commodore.

Maybe im just mad cause im on cable internet which is about useless
to host upon. (no dsl available -- else id wipe winblows xp off this
comp and go with bsd or fedora core 4 in a heartbeat).

Typical wolfpaw.net cut and paste.
Package Name Price Description
Builder Account $9.99 USD 250 MB Space, 1 Mud, 1 Shell, 25MB Ram, 10% CPU
Development Mud Account $19.99 USD 400 MB Space, 2 Muds, 3 Shells, 45MB Ram, 15% CPU
Advanced Mud Account $29.99 USD 700 MB Space, 3 Muds, 3 Shells, 55MB Ram, 25% CPU
Super Mud Account $39.99 USD 800 MB Space, 3 Muds, 6 Shells, 75MB Ram, 35% CPU
God Mud Account $49.99 USD 1 GB Space, 4 Muds, 10 Shells, 90 MB Ram, 45% CPU
Design-A-Pak! $??.?? USD Design a Custom Hosting Package to fit your needs!


So I click design-a-mud-pak....


Please Click here to read our Terms of Service.
Monthly Price: $67.57 USD
Quarterly Price (5% off): $192.57 USD
Yearly Price (10% off): $729.76 USD
Setup Fee: Free
HD Space: 1024 MB
BGD Processes: 3
CName's: 1
Shell Accounts: 2
Mailman Lists: None
BackAdm Backups Daily: Yes
Ram Limit: 60 MB (60 megs of ram is their friggin limit).
Processor Limit: 40%
Reserved TCP Ports: 99
Max TCP Connections: Unlimited

Basicaly I'm far-gone beyond God mud.

Hm, whats after god-mud, hell I dunno.

Eon-mud? Gods brother of gods sister to god's cousin who mentioned
god's mother to a brother of a second god's husband's mud?

I mean what the hell

Basicaly needing 768 megs of ram (hey I need a test port to code on too).
at least 3-4 gigs of space (backups and log files and stuff). A cpu which
isnt crippled by some stupid percentage ratio! To afford this off a mud
hosting site im looking at what, 150-200$ a month? No friggin thanks,
I will pass and save my self the vasoline.


Damn I miss my mud Sad

~Kell the Kyuss
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eiz



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 152
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To afford this off a mud
hosting site im looking at what, 150-200$ a month?


Yes, servers cost money. The problem is that your memory requirements are insane. Consider investing the effort to switch to a disk based system (and, probably, fix a bunch of memory leaks). Yes, I know you have X00000 lines of spaghetti code that you can't fix... Should have done it sooner.

Aside from that, your options are basically to lease a dedicated server or buy one and colocate it. Either way you're looking at $100+/mo + startup costs. You could also see if your local provider offers a high speed business SDSL package, but that will cost about the same.
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Tyche



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 176
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: Hosting solutions -- a rant Reply with quote

Kyuss wrote:

myself, just to be able to boot up, needs at least 300 megs of ram (very
hard to find a service which even offers more then 128 megs).


Your memory requirements ARE insane.
I'd be asking what's wrong with the mud's architecture.
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Kyuss



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Southern Hellinois

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not sure what a disk based system is -- I am not code smart. Rolling Eyes

Well, I know its my fault. Valgrind was only recently ported over to Bsd,
and I never got a chance to abuse it to find where the memory drips were.
I always dreamed about being able to fix the issues with valgrind...but...

It compiles at 8.1 megs currently (only 7.7 when it went down). Hell magic.c
is at 850k. The problem with the architechure is me. The fact that theres
over 1k affects and near 1k abilities for 20 classes (spello is 50+ integers
for each spell). By the time the rooms load, its up to 35 megs (which I
find odd, since theres only 20 megs of zone files.) renumumber all of
the raff's and mobs, load the mobs its over 200 megs. Assign all the obj
pointers (w.obj is near a meg). 500+ command pointers for some more
memory. Add in virtual mob stat growth over time, and yes ive seen it
use 300 megs of ram when it stayed up over a week.).

Yeah I know the architechure is trashed, but its Diku, what could I expect. Smile

Yeah I also know its spaghetti code. It ran, that was all that mattered.

~K
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to concur - your requirements are insane! And you can't really blame it on the Diku architecture, as that can run fine on extremely old hardware.

I designed my mud from the perspective of "premature optimsation is evil", and ended up having to make some hasty optimsations later because of the hosting limitations. In addition, most of my design decisions were made to improve stability, readability and maintainability at the expense of efficiency.

But even at its most inefficient, my mud didn't come close to the sort of requirements you're talking about (in fact I was still within what you refer to as an "average" mud host).
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Blaidd



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kyuss wrote:

It compiles at 8.1 megs currently (only 7.7 when it went down). Hell magic.c
is at 850k. The problem with the architechure is me. The fact that theres
over 1k affects and near 1k abilities for 20 classes (spello is 50+ integers
for each spell). By the time the rooms load, its up to 35 megs (which I
find odd, since theres only 20 megs of zone files.) renumumber all of
the raff's and mobs, load the mobs its over 200 megs. Assign all the obj
pointers (w.obj is near a meg). 500+ command pointers for some more
memory. Add in virtual mob stat growth over time, and yes ive seen it
use 300 megs of ram when it stayed up over a week.).


Sounds like you need some kind of memory management system to unload things when players aren't actually interacting with them. Depends on how many players you have I guess but there is no reason to keep 20 megs of zone files and 200 megs of monster files loaded at all times when players may not even be in those zones.

I use DGD which is automatically disk based, but I still advocate not loading things until they're actually needed and then getting rid of them if nobody is using them.

You don' t need all of that stuff in memory as soon as you boot up for sure.
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Silverthorn



Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Waycross, Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets see... Kingston KVR266X72RC25/2G (2 GB) chips are running at about $350/each (Memory must be populated in pairs).

If you donate the additional ECC registered ram I need for my hosting server (see above for estimate), I will be happy to host your game. Bandwidth, CPU needs and disk space isn't a problem. Wink

The other option would be to build say an AMD Opteron Dual-Core server (Tyan has a nice barebones package available -- PX-22) then have it co-located. If you do think of building a server, I would recommend the use of ECC registered ram (to prevent nasty memory faults) and the use of SCSI-LVD drives, especially needed for long-term wear and tear.

-- M
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Drealoth



Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated hosting is probably the best solution for you. Dreamhost has some nice plans: You can get the low end Dreamhost one with 512mb of ram and a P4 for $99/month all the way up to a Dual Xeon with 2GB of ram for $399/month. It's expensive, but otherwise your only alternative would be to host it yourself.
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Kyuss



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Southern Hellinois

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Irony Reply with quote

So, with Dsl, I rig up a comp network, off a router to a pair of computers.

Getting the mud ready to boot up on the server.

The router is smoking like a cigar. The sizzling is apparent in the device.

Dell then refers me to Netgear. Damn rma's.

Universe moves at its own speed Sad
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Silverthorn



Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Waycross, Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your looking for a true router that can handle the bandwidth easily, I recommend business-class Linksys RV router or a SonicWall TZ router. Either one should do what you are needing for it to handle high-level bandwidth needs.

I use the Linksys RV routers for several of the SBS 2003 deployments I have been doing and w/ a backup ability for twin DSL or Cable modem capability, not one of them has failed.

-- M
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Dace



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Hosting solutions -- a rant Reply with quote

Kyuss wrote:

Typical wolfpaw.net cut and paste.
Package Name Price Description
Builder Account $9.99 USD 250 MB Space, 1 Mud, 1 Shell, 25MB Ram, 10% CPU
Development Mud Account $19.99 USD 400 MB Space, 2 Muds, 3 Shells, 45MB Ram, 15% CPU
Advanced Mud Account $29.99 USD 700 MB Space, 3 Muds, 3 Shells, 55MB Ram, 25% CPU
Super Mud Account $39.99 USD 800 MB Space, 3 Muds, 6 Shells, 75MB Ram, 35% CPU
God Mud Account $49.99 USD 1 GB Space, 4 Muds, 10 Shells, 90 MB Ram, 45% CPU
Design-A-Pak! $??.?? USD Design a Custom Hosting Package to fit your needs!


Note that wolfpaw is by far the most expensive mud host around. Services like arthmoor and mudmagic provide very comparable service for around half the price.

Your reqs *are* pretty insane, though. You really should be loading them on a need basis, as Blaidd said.
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Osiris



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: Resources cheap, service not so much... Reply with quote

For my dedicated mud server, I got a 1.5Mb DSL w/static IP for 29.99/mo. I loaded Slackware 10.2 on an (old) 2.0 GHz desktop with 512MB of ram and a 40gig hdd which I had sitting around. I paid ~$100 for a litle firewall appliance and some cabling. Big whoop. Now my developer partner and I have ooodles of resources... basically for $30/month.

I also like getting to configure the firewall myself, and the ease of doing data backups at the machine. I don't like that suddenly I have to be much more competent with linux.

As for hosting, I've had accounts at Wolfpaw and Betterbox and 'like' them both. Though Joong left Betterbox so I don't know if I'd go get a new account there. Chuck does 'rock' but still...

On the other hand Dale at Wolfpaw was very helpful. Even when we had trouble with what seemed like a simple thing, he helped us out. So you have to factor that you are paying something for the service.
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Resources cheap, service not so much... Reply with quote

Osiris wrote:
For my dedicated mud server, I got a 1.5Mb DSL w/static IP for 29.99/mo.


Does your DSL contract actually allow you to run a 24/7 service though?
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Osiris



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Resources cheap, service not so much... Reply with quote

KaVir wrote:
Osiris wrote:
For my dedicated mud server, I got a 1.5Mb DSL w/static IP for 29.99/mo.


Does your DSL contract actually allow you to run a 24/7 service though?


I re-read my agreement. It specifies a 'commercial' purpose and my static IP but does not say anything about running a 'service' specifically. My non-authoritative legal interpretation, therefore, is that I can.

Consider that I am in a modern 50+ story building. Bandwidth here is uber-cheap. For my firm I negotiated a 4Mb data pipe for $400/mo. Other providers would charge about that, or more, just for a paltry T1. (That might be an E1 to you mate)

Wink
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Silverthorn



Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Waycross, Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just can't wait til VDSL comes around (if ever). Rumors of like 100MB/sec down and nearly 45MB/sec up pipe. In the area I live in, we found that Bellsouth might actually use our little town as a testing ground.
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