Dumb question: Just what is a RPI?
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Ashon



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sandi wrote:
Ashon,

With respect, I think you're missing the point. Or, perhaps not, perhaps we need another thread to hash over the aspects of RPI that other roleplayers disprove of. At any rate, Traithe was enumerating the game elements that define an RPI, and while those elements may not define what you call "roleplay", I don't think we can argue with Traithe and Del about the requirements of their chosen genre.

They are free, of course, to argue between themselves. Wink


Well, not knowing either Traithe or Delerak, and not having played their games I haven't seen what makes their words/definitions definitive. Seemed to me that we were trying to come to a consensus about the elements that define an RPI.

I think we all agree that RPI's are games that focus on Roleplaying Elements backed by code. As Traithe pointed out. I was making a point that 1, 2, & 3, aren't parts of the game that either add or detract from roleplaying. And should be dismissed from the list as possible items that should be used to categorize whether or not a game is RPI or Role-play Encouraged.

But more to the point what are those subsystems that support roleplay? (Which is probably better saved for a different topic). Are the 1,2, & 3 the systems that are supposed to support roleplay? I hope not. That would seem very boring.

But thanks for making me clarify my non-caffine induced (way too)early morning post.
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Traithe



Joined: 13 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashon, the point you are missing is this: the acronym already exists, and is already used to describe a select group of games.

The games described share in common those features I listed above, and they are generally the most significant features that "set them apart" as RPI's.

Ergo, arguing or debating is rather pointless, unless you intend to overcomplicate something that should be pretty straightforward.
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Ashon



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traithe wrote:
Ashon, the point you are missing is this: the acronym already exists, and is already used to describe a select group of games.

The games described share in common those features I listed above, and they are generally the most significant features that "set them apart" as RPI's.

Ergo, arguing or debating is rather pointless, unless you intend to overcomplicate something that should be pretty straightforward.


I'm not trying to overcomplicate, or debate or argue, it seems to me that between Delerak, Haiwolfe, and yourself there is still a huge difference between what an RPI should include.

And I do see that I was confusing myself and other readers by slipping in my opinions on the items listed. And for that I apologize. From here I'll confine myself to the question that really interest me.

Delerak wrote:

1. Permanent death.
2. Short descriptions, Main descriptions, Long Descriptions, and a Background.
3. Extensive emote system
4. No global channels.
5. Extensive environments and rooms
6. No levels.
7. Application process- I believe RPI's should be though it isn't a requirement IMHO.
8. Color



Falconer wrote:

1. RPI MUDs are environments that stress the importance of a coherent, collective effort to create an interactive story over the progress of an individual player.
2. This philosophy results in the creation of coded systems and an administrative position that stress the coherency and communal aspect of the world.
3. A distinct seperation between IC knowledge and OOC knowledge.
4. An administrative focus on preserving the IC aspect of the gameworld.
5. The stress in programming of realism over gameplay.
6. RPI MUDs are programmed to ensure that, once-approved, players can act with very little staff involvement.


Traithe wrote:

1. Applications required for all PCs.
2. Permadeath.
3. Complete absence of any PC-accessible OOC global channels.
4. Heavy reliance on relatively realistic coded simulations as adjudicators of in-game conflicts, e.g. combat code. (This last obviously being far more subjective than the first three.)


It seems to me, between the three of you, the only items agreed upon, are: No Channels. Permadeath is noted by two of you, and Application system is noted by two, and waved off by one.

And I'm not trying to demean the Genre, I'm just trying to clarify in my own mind the fact that the only agreed upon items that the code must handle to make a mud qualify as a RPI would be: No OOC Channels, Permadeath, and an Application Process?

Other then those, the only other thing that is agreed upon is consistency in building and in the theme?

Again. While this may sound like I'm trying to confuse the subject, I myself am confused, and just trying to bumble my way through it.
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Tyche



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 176
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashon wrote:

Well, not knowing either Traithe or Delerak, and not having played their games I haven't seen what makes their words/definitions definitive.
Seemed to me that we were trying to come to a consensus about the elements that define an RPI.


OBEDIT: I was writing this without benefit of your last post Ashon.

The term RPI does not describe a feature set which is better for role-playing. It simply describes a feature set of a handful of games.

What if I told you that LARP was the best system for role-playing, and that your sitting at the kitchen tabletop role-playing game was vastly inferior because you did not require players to come costumed nor actually act out their character's actions? You'd think I was a nutter or an asshole, or both. If I insisted that unless you enforce the costume and acting rule, your game is not really a role-playing game at all but a role-play encouraged one.

So you see it's not about consensus on what the best role-playing systems are. There is no consensus. When you think about defining RPI, think about defining LARP.

The features of a LARP are arbitrary rules that LARPers believe makes a better game or environment for a role-playing. And so is RPI. It's a set of arbitrary features that RPIers think makes for a better role-playing game.

The conceit of some RPIers is that those running role-playing muds would want to implement their odd feature set or even be called an RPI.
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Traithe



Joined: 13 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Tyche. That's exactly what I was trying to get across. Smile

Ashon, the features I listed are those that are absolutely necessary to establish an RPI MUD. Miss any one of them and your featureset simply won't suffice, given the current understanding of the genre.

Of course, there are other smaller features which may or may not be necessary, but my list was distilled into the three basic quantifiable code requirements and a fourth more general somewhat subjective one.

You can debate their importance or effectiveness all day, but that's another issue entirely. <g>

Delerak's list is erroneous, given that some of those items would disqualify one or another of the current large RPI MUDs, and the one thing that we can all agree on is that the label was coined through its current usage (i.e. the list likely describes what he might want RPIs to be, not what they are, which is the subject of this thread). Falconer's list is interesting and by far the most thought-provoking of the three, but much too subjective to be of any use when it comes to the quick-and-dirty process of labelling niche-oriented featuresets for the convenience of prospective players.
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Frisia



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had actually never really run into the apparent controversy surrounding the term "RPI" until fairly recently, given that I was brought into the online roleplaying community in this somewhat small niche and really didn't know that there was a controversy.

However, it does seem to be a little too much hype over the term, for many of the reasons that Traithe has stated. It's like getting into a mud-throwing contest (no pun intended) over "why aren't the birds bees?" I'm sure it's not the only acronym out there that isn't quite perfect.

Just figured I'd chime in as one of the other crazies out there. Wink
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Ashon



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traithe wrote:

Delerak's list is erroneous, given that some of those items would disqualify one or another of the current large RPI MUDs


Can you give a listing of the 'currently large' RPI MUDs?

EDIT: I originally did a TMC search for RPI, Eiz pointed out that I was not doing a proper search (it Returned 14 hits) when I put in Role-Intensive, I found 5 that Matched.

First off, I'm too lazy to go through them all, and secondly none of them have the 4 items that you listed as being required for RPI. Thus, my Original Question: Which are the ones that you called the 'currently large' RPI MUDs?
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Pheralan



Joined: 19 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashon wrote:
Thus, my Original Question: Which are the ones that you called the 'currently large' RPI MUDs?

I'd imagine that Traithe was speaking about Shadows of Isildur, Armageddon, harshlands (and its derivatives), otherspace (and its plethora of games) and a few others I'm sure I don't know about.

I can't speak for Traithe, but those MU*s come to mind when I think of RPI. All, I think, have permadeath, and are a skill-based set of systems.

If I'm wrong, c'est la vie.
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Traithe



Joined: 13 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pheralan's close! Smile Otherspace, while a great game, is not an RPI - exactly the sort of scenario that Tyche covered very well above.

To that list I would probably add Southlands - I've never played it myself, but from what I understand it shares those four features, and has been around for quite some time.
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Tyche



Joined: 13 May 2005
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Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traithe wrote:
Pheralan's close! Smile Otherspace, while a great game, is not an RPI - exactly the sort of scenario that Tyche covered very well above.

To that list I would probably add Southlands - I've never played it myself, but from what I understand it shares those four features, and has been around for quite some time.


It was the Southlands implementor who first outlined a list of features on usenet sometime in 1998 though without the term RPI.

Sort of off-topic but can anyone involved in RPIs help me fill out or correct this geneaology.

Code:

Diku
      \
      Artic
           \
            Harshlands-----------------------
                  \               \           \
                   Southlands   Armageddon  Shadows of Isildur


Or was Armageddon descended directly from Artic or Diku?
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Ashon



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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyche wrote:


Sort of off-topic but can anyone involved in RPIs help me fill out or correct this geneaology.

Code:

Diku
      \
      Artic
           \
            Harshlands-----------------------
                  \               \           \
                   Southlands   Armageddon  Shadows of Isildur


Or was Armageddon descended directly from Artic or Diku?


So, Codewise, they are all based off the same codebase? I was under the impression that RPI was a meta categorization.

I understand that it is a meta categorization, but the major ones are based off the same code?
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Traithe



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I can't speak to either the Armageddon or the Southlands codebases, having never seen their code.

However, the Harshlands codebase was a direct derivative of DIKU Gamma, and the SoI codebase was derived from the Harshlands codebase, if that helps.

Armageddon and Southlands both run on non-HL-based code.
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Tyche



Joined: 13 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:

Diku-----------------------------
   \           \                  \
    Artic       Harshlands(*)   SouthLands(*) 
       \                  \                             
        Armageddon(*)   Shadows of Isildur(*)


RPI muds have asterixes

I think it was Armageddon then that started with Artic code.

There's also [URL=http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.mud.announce/browse_frm/thread/221776084ef76116/ee7825f655b3ffd5?q=southlands+group:rec.games.mud.*&rnum=1&hl=en#ee7825f655b3ffd5]"The Four Lands"[/url]

I also find references to [url=http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.mud.admin/browse_frm/thread/a8f8cc196612fb4c/0d348e5d5cacb3fd?q=rpi+group:rec.games.mud.*&rnum=2&hl=en#0d348e5d5cacb3fd]SQ and Aldara [/url] More at [url=http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.mud.admin/browse_frm/thread/2bd3aadc0e83bc02/9d46ee62a6ade45c?q=rpi+group:rec.games.mud.*&rnum=5&hl=en#9d46ee62a6ade45c]SwordQuest[/url]

I wonder where [url=http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.mud.diku/browse_frm/thread/1dfd4e8270811894/6b24d351a59b9b26?q=rpi+group:rec.games.mud.*&rnum=3&hl=en#6b24d351a59b9b26]NiMUD[/url] 2000 fits, it's a Merc derivative released in 1999 as a RPI mud server.

[url=http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.mud.misc/browse_frm/thread/956f868cc4c7e731/35660b3a391cc0c7?q=role+intensive+group:rec.games.mud.*&rnum=8&hl=en#35660b3a391cc0c7]Threshold[/url]
BTW I played Threshold in '97 and while it had an OOC channel you were punished for using it. Close enough methinks.

Anyone have copies of the Aldara or SwordQuest code above. I collect old mud codes. Wink

Historic references.

[url=http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.mud.diku/browse_frm/thread/ba62f12ef9322ab8/14e465934fd7a795?q=role+intensive+group:rec.games.mud.*&rnum=5&hl=en#14e465934fd7a795]First description of role-play intensive?[/url]


No, it's not your eyes ... I'm editing this message as I go.


Last edited by Tyche on Wed May 25, 2005 11:33 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Traithe



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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems about right.
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Delerak



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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

www.robpeckham.net
SwordQuest.
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