Movement speed vs weapon reach
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Asuming characters are facing a direction you can narrow down the long range vision to 120 degrees, which would cut down on 2/3rd of the spam.


I tend to assume that people actively look around when typing 'look' or 'scan' - IMO it would be really annoying to have to keep turning around and scanning in different directions.

The angle-of-vision thing could work well for passive sight though (for people who aren't deliberately in some sort of 'lookout' mode). I already use facing to indicate if someone has their back to you (their name is coloured differently), so the same logic could be used to indicate whether or not the person is in front of you.

Of course that would also mean you couldn't see someone grin or wave if they were behind you, which could rapidly get annoying. Perhaps it might be better to only hide such information if you're in 'stealth mode'.

Quote:
To deal with being sneaked up from behind you can add a hearing range as well, allowing you to hear something behind you.


Yup, I already support that - you can specify which senses are required to see a message (you only need one of them) as well as which senses you mustn't have (so that you can stack up alternative messages). For example you could never see both of the following:

Visual message: KaVir starts walking north.

Sound message for those who can't see KaVir: You hear footsteps behind you.


Equally, you'd see the following as long as you could see or hear (you wouldn't need both):

Visual + Sound message: KaVir laughs.

Quote:
Asuming detail becomes less clear at longer distances you can add binding of groups like Heroes of Might and Magic uses, a legion of orcs, a group of orcs, a couple of orcs, etc. You can also give less detail, unless the thing is in the character's memory.


Could do, if it gets spammy - but that's a problem to worry about later ;)

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Being textual instead of graphical you don't have the problems of terrain based line of sight as well.


Well it depends - it could be argued that I shouldn't be able to see the forest behind the mountain, for example.

Quote:
The scan command could be used to increase alterness, this in case you need an even bigger vision range. "scan north", or "look north", comes to mind if you want a way for characters to quickly face a different direction as well.


If someone uses 'scan' to increase their alertess, I'd rather they only had to type it once and then let them stay in that state until they did something else. Otherwise it's likely to turn into a spammed macro.
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raz



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Movement speed vs weapon reach Reply with quote

I forgot to mention one thing in my last post. What you could also probably do is extend your plots to 300x300. Then you could subdivide each plot into "mini-plots" (or whatever). For shorter range movement, you could only consider the mini-plots and calculate that. For the longer distance movement, consider the plots. I don't think you would have a lot of problems shifting back and forth between the two concepts.
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What you could also probably do is extend your plots to 300x300. Then you could subdivide each plot into "mini-plots" (or whatever). For shorter range movement, you could only consider the mini-plots and calculate that. For the longer distance movement, consider the plots.


Well movement doesn't care about plots - movement is in feet. The plots are only used to define what sort of terrain you're travelling over.

So for example...while walking north, there might be two plots of "plain" then several plots of "forest" ahead of you. Therefore you'd walk 20 feet across the plain, then start moving through the forest. If the plots each represented 300x300 feet, then you'd instead have to walk 600 feet across the plain before you entered the forest (which, at the current walking speed, would take you exactly 10 minutes RL time).
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Ashon



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teelf wrote:

The more complex problem of finding out when something crosses into a characters vision is a collision detection/containment problem. Like so many good software engineering problems, you can either poll or do events. To poll, you take the characters vision circle and see what other characters it contains. Keep track of the objects that were inside the circle the last check, then see what new objects are in. Do this every X seconds. Or, event driven, everytime a character moves you can take the line segment of thier movement (new position - old position) and do intersection tests on the other characters vision circles.


I will agree, that having a sensual collision system would work the best. An event based sensual collision system is going to give you the flexibility and elegance that would make the system perfect. It feels right and it sounds right, especially in a coordinate base system.

You could have different collision zones for each sense, and, you could have a different broadcast distance for each type of action, modified by environmental variables.
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You could have different collision zones for each sense, and, you could have a different broadcast distance for each type of action, modified by environmental variables.


Well I already have the latter, but the former would be a cool addition. Some more thoughts:

Sight: Only works on things in front of you? Adjusted for some weather conditions such as fog. Modified by skills such as 'hide'.

Sound: Difficult when lots of people are nearby, and adjusted by some weather conditions (such as thunder storms). Modified by skills such as 'sneak'.

Smell: Small range, except for those with supernatural senses. Works far better downwind of the person being sensed.

Taste: N/A - would only work for things eaten.

Touch: Range "touch" (obviously) - someone bumping into you from behind, or an invisible attacker. Could also be used to detect pickpockets, or wake up when kicked.

Other supernatural senses could also be added.


Something that bothers me a bit though, is if seeing people enter/leave your line of sight is based on the direction you're facing, what happens when you look around by type 'look'? Eg:

You are walking through the forest.

You hear the sound of light footsteps moving rapidly towards you from behind.

> look

You look around.

Twenty feet south of you, KaVir is jogging towards you.


Now what happens when KaVir suddenly stops moving. Should the mud be able to make the connection for you between the sound and the visual, and inform you that 'KaVir' has stopped? Or should you just hear the footsteps stop?
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Teelf



Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 21
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KaVir wrote:


Well movement doesn't care about plots - movement is in feet. The plots are only used to define what sort of terrain you're travelling over.

So for example...while walking north, there might be two plots of "plain" then several plots of "forest" ahead of you. Therefore you'd walk 20 feet across the plain, then start moving through the forest. If the plots each represented 300x300 feet, then you'd instead have to walk 600 feet across the plain before you entered the forest (which, at the current walking speed, would take you exactly 10 minutes RL time).


Ok. I finally understand what you mean bout movement taking longer. I thought it would only appear to take longer. But you are proposing changing the size of a plot without doing things like reducing the number of plots in the game.

So you didn't like the idea of displaying people outside the 50ft with text only descriptions? That one seems to me the best.

Having a separate view for long range combat does seem feasible. Like the opposite of sniper mode in an FPS. You default would be the close up view and they could switch to a long range view? I wonder if people would actually end up using the long range view more of the time?


Last edited by Teelf on Fri May 13, 2005 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Teelf



Joined: 12 May 2005
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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KaVir wrote:


Sound: Difficult when lots of people are nearby, and adjusted by some weather conditions (such as thunder storms). Modified by skills such as 'sneak'.


Sound works slightly different. Instead of a character having an equivalent 'hearing radius', Have the sound event start at a point, then propogate out in a sphere. Those who are encompassed in it get to hear it. The strength of the sound degrades as the sphere gets bigger. And naturally, once a character is encompassed you can then apply character specific things like hearing ability vs strength of the sound, and whatever environmental factors you wish.

Quote:

Smell: Small range, except for those with supernatural senses. Works far better downwind of the person being sensed.


I would probably model smell as with sound but expand far smaller and more slowly

Quote:

Something that bothers me a bit though, is if seeing people enter/leave your line of sight is based on the direction you're facing, what happens when you look around by type 'look'? Eg:

You are walking through the forest.

You hear the sound of light footsteps moving rapidly towards you from behind.

> look

You look around.

Twenty feet south of you, KaVir is jogging towards you.


Now what happens when KaVir suddenly stops moving. Should the mud be able to make the connection for you between the sound and the visual, and inform you that 'KaVir' has stopped? Or should you just hear the footsteps stop?


If you come up with a good algorithm for it, definetly. The mud should make understanding what's going on as easy as possible.
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Ashon



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 86
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KaVir wrote:
Quote:
You could have different collision zones for each sense, and, you could have a different broadcast distance for each type of action, modified by environmental variables.


Well I already have the latter, but the former would be a cool addition. Some more thoughts:


Ohh goodness, lemme grab another cup of joe.

Quote:
Sight: Only works on things in front of you? Adjusted for some weather conditions such as fog. Modified by skills such as 'hide'.


Yes. In front of you. There are a lot of variables that can go into the system, like what you current activity is, what your stance is, you alertness level, blah blah blah. The Variable I'll leave up to you, as you know your system best. But what about having two sets of sight detection. A Distinct Detection Zone, where you can tell detail, you can see KaVir, is jogging towards you and then a vague detection zone: Off in the distance a large indistinct shape looms. Off in the distance a figure is moving towards you.


Quote:
Sound: Difficult when lots of people are nearby, and adjusted by some weather conditions (such as thunder storms). Modified by skills such as 'sneak'.


Modified by racial senses, voice level (whisper, say, shout, yell), again alertness, attention. Again, you can add whatever variables that you'd like to the your system.

Quote:
Smell: Small range, except for those with supernatural senses. Works far better downwind of the person being sensed.

Taste: N/A - would only work for things eaten.


Smell is good for multiple things. But yes, same thing, add variables as you see fit.

Taste, you are correct, it's most likely N/A.

Quote:
Touch: Range "touch" (obviously) - someone bumping into you from behind, or an invisible attacker. Could also be used to detect pickpockets, or wake up when kicked.


I disagree. Use Touch as personal space. If someone has violated that personal space bubble you normally can feel it. This gives you that one off chance, a split second to throw up a block when someone has successfully sneaked up on you.

Quote:
Other supernatural senses could also be added.


Like Psionics, Magic, Heat Detection. Yup.


Quote:
Something that bothers me a bit though, is if seeing people enter/leave your line of sight is based on the direction you're facing, what happens when you look around by type 'look'? Eg:

You are walking through the forest.

You hear the sound of light footsteps moving rapidly towards you from behind.

> look

You look around.

Twenty feet south of you, KaVir is jogging towards you.


Now what happens when KaVir suddenly stops moving. Should the mud be able to make the connection for you between the sound and the visual, and inform you that 'KaVir' has stopped? Or should you just hear the footsteps stop?


We talked about Possesive Nouns on items over at TMC, and I don't see why you wouldn't assign KaVir to the sound of running feet, if you've assigned an importance to it, by looking around. I feel that i've you've stopped to identify it, it has become important or memorable to your character. But say a second person starts running behind you. In that instance, I'd remove the possesiveness of it, until the character assigns importance to it again.
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Baeran



Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 15
Location: On your lawn.

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a note I realize the post is alittle cold at this point, its like 3 days after the last reply but oh well...

If the only problem was that the range shown to archers on the map was insufficient then why not just make a new map command that would show a wide area map? The general population appears to have no problem using the smaller, approx. 50 foot, map. Why change that? Just add a map with a broader scope.

A problem this brings up is that you are talking about ranges of 900 feet in any given direction. That is a display of what 181 plots wide? Might be a bit spammy to display all that, but if you show maybe only every fifth or tenth plot and place each player that you can see on the closest plot to their current location.

Maybe add a lag penalty to the command so that only people who are using bows, or people who really need it for navigating purposes will use it.

Just my thoughts on it...

Baeran
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KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: Munich

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baeran wrote:
As a note I realize the post is alittle cold at this point, its like 3 days after the last reply but oh well...


Well 3 days isn't really long ;) Teelf and Ashon brought up some interesting points which I decided to ponder over, which is why I hadn't responded.

Quote:
If the only problem was that the range shown to archers on the map was insufficient then why not just make a new map command that would show a wide area map? The general population appears to have no problem using the smaller, approx. 50 foot, map. Why change that? Just add a map with a broader scope.

A problem this brings up is that you are talking about ranges of 900 feet in any given direction. That is a display of what 181 plots wide? Might be a bit spammy to display all that, but if you show maybe only every fifth or tenth plot and place each player that you can see on the closest plot to their current location.


Well the plots are divided into tiles (one tile contains 10x10 plots) and I've already got a map which displays entire tiles. These are not sufficiently detailed for accurate navigation (people would fall into rivers and such) but for archery they should be fine.

What I'm currently thinking of doing is changing each plot to 30x30 feet, tripling movement speed (which also means I can more accurately represent diagonal movement) and then providing a tile-based map for archery. That would allow people to see opponents up to 1500 feet away on the map without making the plots really large.
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