Death penalty options
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    mudlab.org Forum Index -> Design
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Grem



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:13 pm    Post subject: Death penalty options Reply with quote

What kind of death penalties are in your MUD? Do players prefer harsh penalties or mild penalties? Consider realism VS frustration, drawbacks, and benefits of each system. What works 'best'? Namely, what would most players 'accept' as a fun and fair way to treat death?


1. Do players lose their equipment when they die?
2. Do players lose experience when they die?
3. How do they resurrect their character?
4. Are there temporary or permanent penalties bestowed upon the character at death?
5. Do you have any sort of 'innovative' concept to manage character death?


My idea is to send players to purgatory and give them the option to choose the 'penalty' for their death, whether it be wealth loss, experience loss, or temporary skill atrophy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Author Message
Kyuss



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Southern Hellinois

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no 'best' form of death Smile Just creator preference.

1: No, they keep it with them. The idea is that their god intervenes upon
their behalf before their body is split from their soul and all that jazz. I
always hated equipment loss and mobs looting eq when the mobs were
generaly far meaner for the players. On some muds, this does work, and
it works quite well, but it depends on the muds design. Soul has alot of
random and non intentional death, and equip loss would be far to cruel in
those cases. Then again most mud deaths are non-intentional. This is
more like wander around and have yourself pasted on the floor if you
make a wrong turn.

2. Yep, quite a bit in fact. They also age.
As Soul is a difficulty based mud, depending on the difficulty, players
will loose karma when they die, if the character runs out of karma they
are deleted. hardcore characters simply delete at this time.

3. chars can be raised, but if they system shock, timer expires or they
type resurrect they end up at the temple of the god they follow. again,
this assumes they arent hardcore, who would delete at this time.

4. characters who go below 0 karma loose a great deal of the benefits
they have gathered over time, incentive to keep good karma. alas,
deletion is rather permanent, so they try to avoid it.

5. they can play a normal who doesnt loose karma or permadeath, but
these characters are the least powerful. Other wise, they game with their
characters life, but the PD's gain more power and exp then normals, so it
balances in the end.

Ive been debating stat loss's on people who system shock for a short
period of time. Level loss gets cruel when they really have to work for the
levels (and hell as much as my chars die, I dont wanna complain at my
self as much as I would if I were an evil creator).

honestly, as far as allowing characters to pick and choose their punishment
Im not sure if that is really fitting. most im sure, unless your economy is
really, really good, would end up paying for their death in wealth (buying
off the reaper, novel thought at that). so unless they cannot afford it, that
would be the route that they take.

death should never be easy, in your case, I would say let them pick one,
and then random assign one. so they might pay double gold, or gold and
temp skill loss and that jazz.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Author Message
Kjartan



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have:
1. they make a corpse, which has the equipment left on it. Other players are strongly discouraged from stealing it. However, the monsters in the vicinity may help themselves if they see something they like.

2. Yes. Although, we have two levels of "dead". When you are struck down, your soul stays with your body for about 5 minutes (or until you deliberately let it go). During that time you can be magically resurrected if a high-enough level cleric is available. After that you have a chance of losing a level. There are also monsters that gravitate to players in this state and gnaw bits off the corpse or eat the soul, which causes them to pass this time faster.

3. Happens automatically, but they are naked and at 1 hp. Then we have a family bonding experience where other people help them get their stuff back from the monsters.

4. Other than the ones mentioned above, no.

5. If they die, have them enter a chess game with Death. If they win, they get resurrected for free with no penalties. (Death can start out really pathetic and get better each time the player dies, until he starts losing occasionally.) Not that we do this, but there's a concept for you - it's traditional, too!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has already been pointed out, there is no 'best' solution. Every player has their own preferences, and different approaches suit different styles of mud better. For example in a PK-oriented mud you don't want to make death too serious, as it'll undermine the focus of the game, while in many RP muds you really need a way to be able to permanently get rid of people in order to advance the storyline.

I'm designing a three-tier death system, based around the concept of the players being immortal godlike beings. The first step is when killed, unless dealt a specific finishing move (such as decapitation), you remain as a corpse while your body attempts to repair itself. Should you choose to release your hold on life (for example your opponent stays standing over your corpse and keeps stabbing you every time you try to get back up) or receive a finishing move, you'll be transported to the spectral plane (much inspired by Soul Reaver) where you can hunt down and devour lost souls until you've gained enough strength to return. Should you be slain again on the spectral plane, or choose to give up hunting souls, you'll be returned to your home plane where you can reform your body and prepare to get back into the action again.

Players can drain unspent primal (experience points) from other players by killing them, but other than that there is no loss from dying - your equipment stays with you, as it becomes associated with your personal plane in much the same way as your physical body.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
Molly O'Hara



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 99
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. No, unless you walk into a DT the equipment is retained in the corpse. There is a risk of stuff in the corpse getting stolen before you reclaim it, but itís usually not a very big one. Corpses save over reboot or crashes of course.

2. Yes, you lose a lot of exp, more the higher level and tier you are, except for Newbies up to level 15, who donít lose anything. You also lose all gold you carry on the char. But dying is still no big deal, at least not for the older players. Personally I think dying should hurt a lot more.

3. At death the players are knocked down to 1 hp and teleported out of the zone.
Originally you had to go back to the room where you died and get the stuff from your corpse, like in most Circle Muds. Or, if the zone is very remote and/or filled with high level aggros, there is an option called The Crypt of the Craven, where you can get the corpse retrieved by the Travel Agency, for a hefty sum, that is a multiplier of their level and tier.
But lately the coder introduced a feature called ĎMeldí, where you get automatically reunited with your equipment, after about 5 minutes. If you donít want to wait that long, you can still either go get the corpse yourself, or use the Crypt. Otherwise you automeld after the set time, and this works even if the player logged out or lost link before that time expired so itís pretty much foolproof.
This is actually one of the few things that the Coder and I disagree on when it comes to the general Mud Design. I liked the old way better, and think that the present way of handling it makes dying way too easy. I tend to see things more from the Ďdesignerísí point of view, while he is more prone to take the playerís point of view. This is probably a result of our different backgrounds in the Mud. I was already an established Builder when 4D started, and havenít actually played the game much, except to test the zones. He on the other hand was a long-time, top player before he became out coder. Thatís why he usually likes to make things easy for the players Ė sometimes too easy in my opinionÖ
Oh well, heís probably right and Iím wrongÖ but I still donít like it.
The players obviously love it. But then again, they would probably love it if we started to dole out free exp and equipment at Recall too.

4. There are no big drawbacks for Ďnormalí players, unless you count the above-mentioned inconveniences. Pkillers however quite often get their corpse junked by the player that killed them. The chance of this happening is of course higher the more enemies youíve got. It actually happens a bit TOO often for my taste, since equip loss is a pretty big blow to the player in our Mud, and sometimes produces a lot of whining and griping about harassment. But going PK is an optional choice you make, and all Pkillers know the risks they are running.

5. Iíd hardly call our MELD feature 'innovative', itís just a convenience. What we do have is a more Ďlogicí explanation to the repeated resurrection from the dead than most other Muds. Since our theme is TimeTravel, the story is that the Travel Agency restores your character to a time immediately before you died. For a very hefty fee, of course.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Author Message
Alayla



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 88
Location: Prague

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The death system Midnight Sun uses is hardly innovative (I think it's as old as the mud), but it works, more or less.

-- When you die, your equipment is transferred onto a zombie - a mob with your pre-death stats. This lessens the danger of somebody looting the corpse, as the zombie needs to be killed to get the equip back, while preserving the player cooperation in corpse retrieval (even strenghtening it to some degree, as you are naked and need to kill a slightly stronger mob that's fully equipped). Time is still of importance if you had any uniques on you, since they can poof when not in a player's inventory.

-- You are transported into Hades. No timer, no timer disguised as a 5-minute deity spam. All you need to do is go through an easy miniquest: pray for divine assistance and give the coin you receive to Charon, who takes you back among the living in his boat.

-- You lose part of your experience, or rather a certain number of stats, depending on the relative strength of the mob that killed you. This is perhaps the most problematic part. We have 19 levels, but you can keep progressing even after that, by raising your stats. Once you get past 19+10 or so, the stats take a lot of experience to gain, but the death penalty is the same as if you were level 19+0, which makes our top players very much risk averse. If we should change anything about the death system, it would be this (but more likely we will end up adding more player levels before that).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
Sandra



Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that there is no 'best'. No matter which option you choose, eventually, it will be disliked by the majority.

1. Our players produce a corpse with their equipment in it. It is owned, but if they are pkillers, another pkiller can steal items from it.

2. Yes. They lose 1/4th of their xp to level, to a max of 750k, or if it's a pk death, drowning, or bleeding to death, half that.

3. They re-enter the game at the inn of their last save point. Then they simply go and collect their things.

4. You lose prestige at death. You are also naked and at 1hp. We also have gradual stats, so the longer you are without your equipment, the longer it will take to restore your stats. Also, after level 10, there is a risk of permadeath if you go below 1/20th of your experience needed to be at your current level.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been recently reading a sci-fi book called 'Altered Carbon', by Richard Morgan, and thought that the way it handles death would extend very well to a futuristic mud.

Everyone has a tiny device called a 'stack' placed in the base of their skull the moment they're born, and when they die this stack can be retrieved and the person downloaded into a new body (which the book refers to as a 'sleeve'). Some of these sleeves are those of other people (eg criminals, who are serving their sentences within a virtual-reality environment), while others are purpose-grown or artificially built.

As space-travel is extremely slow, people also use this method to travel from world to world - soldiers are downloaded into genetically enhanced bodies, lawyers and businessmen rent sleeves to meet their clients in the flesh (considered more classy than virtual meetings), and so on.

This makes accidental 'permanent death' far less likely - although the stack can still be destroyed, you usually have to go to considerable effort. And even destroying the stack isn't always sufficient, as you can have backups made, although this is out of the price range of most people (and regular backups is something that only the stinking rich can really afford). There are also certain religions which don't allow their members to come back after death, even if their stacks are intact.

Translating this to a mud, you'd end up with something like the following:

1. If you die, you spend a period of time in a 'virtual reality' location. After this time you are spawned into a new body with random physical stats.

2. If you have a high status, you're more likely to get a better body.

3. You can spend money to purchase a new and improved body.

4. You can spend money to have your current body cloned, ready for your next death.

5. You can spend money to save your current mental progress (skills, etc).

6. If your stack is destroyed, you restart at your last saved point (except with a new body).

7. You may opt to belong to a permadeath religion, which gives various benefits at the price of having only one 'life'.

I'm not developing a sci-fi mud, but if I were, I think the above would be an interesting approach.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
Maraz



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd considered a similar system for a sci-fi setting to the one KaVir describes. Players would be able to download their memories and experiences and if they were killed their entire memory would be downloaded into a cloned body. There is no reason why they couldn't get a new body, but I think it would be good to give them the option of the same body.

The penalty would be that the player lost any experience they'd gained between downloading their memory and dying. They'd also have to recover their equipment. Perhaps also the cloning technique could be imperfect and their is a chance (or certainty) of the clone having some defects.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is no reason why they couldn't get a new body, but I think it would be good to give them the option of the same body.


What if they had a state-of-the-art genetically and chemically enhanced body? Would they get unlimited replacements, or would they just get a 'standard' version of that body when they died?

Quote:
The penalty would be that the player lost any experience they'd gained between downloading their memory and dying. They'd also have to recover their equipment.


In a futuristic cyberpunk setting I don't think it would necessarily make sense to have to recover your equipment - even if the police didn't pick it up, and your corpse was just left lying in the street, someone would likely strip it of valuables.

However in such a setting it's also less likely that you'd have special (comparible with magical) items. Thus I would probably either give equipment back, remove it from the game, or give it to a nearby mob, depending on the item and the cause/location of death. I'd also allow players to take out insurance on items they owned (except for illegal items).

(It's times like this where it takes real willpower to stick with my current project!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
Maraz



Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What if they had a state-of-the-art genetically and chemically enhanced body? Would they get unlimited replacements, or would they just get a 'standard' version of that body when they died?


Good point. Like I said the clone might not be a perfect copy, and I'd be inclined to say that you lost any enhancements, especially if they were mechanical or chemical. Of course with money (or perhaps status) you might expect to be given a better clone. Changing body might not even be something related to death - it could instead just be an option for high levels, kind of like multi-classing in some MUDs.

As for the issue with equipment, I think it depends how important equipment is to the MUD. In a fantasy MUD, or a sci-fi MUD where you can work hard to gain a special item then I'd be reluctant to make players loose it on death (if only because of the inevitable complaints). Also if equipment was lost on death I think it only fair that players at least be re-equipped with basics, or have easy access to basic equipment. I think a good system is one where if in a group then your equipment can be recovered by friends, but if not then your corpse is likely to be quickly looted by a mob. That would hopefuly encourage groups to form.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Gromble



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the Guild Wars approach where you receive a "death penalty" that reduces your hp/mana by about 15% each time you die in the instanced quest zone. A member of your party can rez you, or eventually you'll be rez'd at a special location in the zone.

Eventually, if you keep dying, you're burdened with such a high penalty that it's best to exit the quest zone and start it over. Having instanced quest zones (something I haven't seen yet in a text mud) is key to this approach, but a variation of it should work for the typical mud that re-spawns its zones.

-Gromble
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Vopisk



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 99
Location: Golden Valley, Arizona, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cyber-punk world meets the Matrix...

Imagine that we expand upon the idea that everyone has a "little black box" (reference aircraft flight recorders). Now, in general, the little black box is intact, even after a horrific accident, they're built that way, but the data inside can be damaged and therefore need to be "reconstructed" by specialists.

So, imagining that every player has a little black box inserted into the back of their heads, we can logically assume that this keeps track of the player's "known skills". "Stats" as they were, or physical abilities, would be tied to the body of the individual and would be reset upon player death. However, when a player dies, perhaps (if we keep track of body part damage) depending upon which parts of the body (the head and spine in particular) were more damaged, the player's black box would suffer a certain amount of "memory loss" and therefore skills could be "forgotten" or "damaged" that is you could either lose, or lose skill respectively and randomly in any skills that your character possesses.

It could also be assumed that since your conscious is tied into your little black box, that skills can be "downloaded" into your memory, expanding on the old idea of training. However, these "lessons" must be stored on some big mainframe down at the local "gym" and so, if one had the skills and whatnot, perhaps they might try to hack the mainframe and download some new skills free of charge (of course, network traffic snoopers would be in place, meaning the player could only stay plugged in for so long before a sniffer zaps them and turns them into a zombie a la their black box).

Furthermore, when a player dies, their concious is of course, downloaded into a new body, however, they can erase a certain memory loss if they have the loot by visiting a 'data recovery specialist' who can reconstruct some or all of the damaged memory over X amount of time for a fee depending upon the severity of the damage.

Of course, we're also assuming that clones are completely commonplace, and so, genetic alterations could be made to bodies, however, this would, it strikes me also be at a cost and so, when a player dies, they lose whatever it is that they had body wise, and are shoved into a "stock" clone until they can get the funds for more upgrades or a better body in general.

If we go further into the "Matrix" idea, we can assume that we have an "outfitting program" where players can get new equipment and whatnot, otherwise their stock clone comes with some basic equipment like a pair of jeans, a white t-shirt and a leather wallet.

If we're going more towards the "Cyber-punk" theme, we can assume a gritty future where any sort of special equipment is pretty rare and one should keep better eye on their valuables before they go and get themselves killed. Perhaps players have a dingy little apartment down on Slum Street where they can store their valuables if they're going out for a night of looting, however, whatever is on the corpse is obviously lost.

And... I think I've reached the end of my useful train of thought, so I'll leave off here and await further reply.

Vopisk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Author Message
Tyche



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 176
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just doing a little work on the first mini-adventure game for TeensyMud and I saw this thread bumped and reread it.

Now I've decided on doing death in this game as....well death. Game over thank you for playing death.

However... the theme is high fantasy and I do have wizards (Yes I'm serious!). Vopisk's post on Matrix death reminded me of some of the spells, especially one on particular, Hide Soul, that player wizards can do.

Necromancy[12] - this is a temporary raise dead spell that requires a corpse. After so many turns it wears off and the person raised buys the farm again. Not to be confused with Zombie which can be done on player corpses as well.

Hide Soul[18] - The wizard's soul is transferred from their body to any object in the game. Their body becomes a corpse. While in the object the wizard can roam the game in ethereal form and attempt to take over a lower level creature or player. That body becomes the wizard's new one, the owner dying. If the object containing the soul is destroyed well the wizard is dead.

Reincarnate[20] - This allows the wizard or anyone else they want to be reincarnated in a new body. One has to have a body on hand though ready for use. This is the most powerful spell in the game currently.

That's about it...relating to bringing one back from death. I expect high level wizards to attempt to try to make themselves (and their friends) effectively immortal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
KaVir



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff - I'm going to be nosey.

Quote:
Now I've decided on doing death in this game as....well death. Game over thank you for playing death.


Dead as in 'deleted' dead? Or dead as in 'hang around in deadville until you get bored of waiting to come back as a zombie, then walk towards the (/dev/null) light'? Or dead as in 'cross over the river styx, wait in line to see the God of Death, and be judged for your next life (i.e., create a new character based on your past achievements)' dead?

Quote:
Necromancy[12] - this is a temporary raise dead spell that requires a corpse. After so many turns it wears off and the person raised buys the farm again.


Does the original player get to play their raised corpse, or is it NPC controlled? If the former, what's the incentive for them to hang around while dead?

Quote:
Not to be confused with Zombie which can be done on player corpses as well.


A player-controlled zombie, or an NPC? Is the zombie permanent, or durational? Can

Quote:
Hide Soul[18] - The wizard's soul is transferred from their body to any object in the game. Their body becomes a corpse. While in the object the wizard can roam the game in ethereal form and attempt to take over a lower level creature or player. That body becomes the wizard's new one, the owner dying. If the object containing the soul is destroyed well the wizard is dead.


What's the incentive to do this? Can PCs die of old age? Or is the spell fast enough that it could be thrown off as a last resort when it's obvious you're about to lose a fight? What sort of defence can a lower-level player put up against such an attack (and how can they fight back)? Is it possible for a possessed PC to get an exorcism, or is their soul immediately cast out the moment the wizard takes them over? Does the spell only last until the wizard takes over a new body, or does it continue (allowing them to jump back to the object if killed in their new body)?

Quote:
Reincarnate[20] - This allows the wizard or anyone else they want to be reincarnated in a new body. One has to have a body on hand though ready for use. This is the most powerful spell in the game currently.


This would imply that pfiles are not simply deleted upon death, then. So what does the dead PC do while dead?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    mudlab.org Forum Index -> Design All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
BBTech Template by © 2003-04 MDesign